I found these results interesting, but I think it is because I think of a cultural Mormon differently. I think of it as someone who attends church but is not really devout and only goes for the social aspects. I understand that it would be hard to determine who in the data set fits that definition. With your definition I can see that cultural Mormon’s would be more common outside Utah and the Jello belt. But with my definition I think the numbers would be flipped. I live in Maryland which means that any type of church service or going to meetings results in more time being required because of travel time. Walking to church or ministering or to drop something off at another members home is different from getting in the car and driving 10, 20, or 30 minutes (or more in some cases). Because of this I have often felt that it is hard to be a lukewarm member where the church is more spread out. Being “active” just takes more time.
This post also makes me think about the idea of “Mormon culture” that comes from Utah and to some extent other places in the jello belt. Because most of the wards in my stake have large numbers of western transplants, I feel that there are some definite influences of that western Mormon culture here. I find it even in myself, a convert of 40 years who has never lived in Utah (except for the MTC), because that has been the predominant influence in my wards. If you go to church in units in small towns in the midwest, south, or east there is a much different culture in those units. In the most recent changes in the handbook, I feel that the goal is to use doctrine and then principles to guide the administration of a worldwide church. In the past the handbook was much more influenced by “Mormon culture” based upon the ways things had been done. These were not bad, but they often did not scale or transfer well to other areas of the world (e.g., the pre-block meeting schedule that was a huge burden on those who had to travel long distances to get to church). So I believe this is an exciting time in the church as leaders are given the basic doctrines and principles to use in leading and administering the church, then they are encouraged to seek the inspiration that they are entitled to as they seek to do what is best for their members. As Elder Holland said, “Dream dreams.”
I agree in principle. I have found that there is more pressure to socially stay within the church in Utah because of the proximity of people within the ward boundaries and fear of being ostracized when drifting away.
Having grown up as a kid in Utah, I found life somewhat difficult because of persecution of other LDS kids. Granted, being an adolescent is tough anywhere. (One of them was encountered in the temple years later while visiting there for a sealing, and he DID apologize and ask my forgiveness. I was not able to think about much else in the temple that day as I wrestled with why I was having difficulty with that. Years later, looking back, I admire him for the courage to do that, and I have forgiven him.)
My subsequent years were tough, hoping for a new experience elsewhere. I found strong saints outside of Utah, with my eventual return to church being because of very strong young adults in TX in an area of baptist and protestant persecution. They HAD to be strong (and drive long distances) in the church, and I'm grateful for their efforts to bring me back. (Heavenly Father also intervened in two distinct, miraculous ways to help me back.)
My first testimony meeting back (stationed at my first base, but attending at a nearby ward) was literally me saying "Don't take this wrong, but you all should leave the church, and then come back, so you'll truly appreciate what you have in the gospel."
My own experience has shown that opposition develops stronger faith, and in my own biased opinion, there's less of it there to truly cause one to dig deep for faith and devotion. I hope that reports I see of statistics for drug prescriptions, plastic surgeries, etc. aren't from social pressures to conform, as I sense them to be.
I think an interesting survey would be an open ended question of what devotion to the church means to them, and collate those results.
Thanks for your comments, insights, and shared experience. I understand your comment about leaving the chruch to appreciate what you have. When I was in the MTC I wanted to yell at some of the missionaries "do you know what you have here?" when they seem casual about the gospel and why they were serving. For me it was apearl of great price. I knew what I found was the greatest thing ever!!
One of the challenges I see in the church is living what I call a performative version of the gopel where you have a list of things to do. If you check all of the things off the list then you are doing pretty good. I have seen a real change in the teachings from our general leaders about really living the gospel and getting down deep in our heart. They way observing the sabath was taught about 8-10 years ago is a good example of getting away from a list of do's and don'ts and focusing on the doctrine and principles of sabbath observance. Also the changes in the FSY pamphlet have really shifted to doctrines and principles. I believe that focusing on the doctrinces keeps us moving to imporove ourselves. With a checklist it is easy to get complacent when you have checked the boxes and you fell that you have done what you need to do and then coast.
Do not get me wrong: I do know that there are many, many, wonderful strong members in Utah. The large presence of the church there can really inspire people to live really good lives, and it can be a very upliting and inspiring place, but such a concentration of members can lead to a culture that is not always in keeping with the culture of the gospel. Being in the jello-belt or out of it each has its own unique challenges. The adversary works hard to exploit what ever situation exists to his advantage which leads to the stories of bad behavior by members. Luckily we have the Savior's grace and sacrifce to help us overcome all of what we face.
I agree on the performative version of the gospel.
I still remember Elder Uchtdorf speaking of the contests with the elaborate doilies and relief society competitions for lesson preparedness decorations.
I thought that MUST be a Utah thing! (I peeked in on our own ward RS meetings, and saw some of the same. ahem)
I did not serve a mission myself because at the time I didn't feel like I could "sell" it to anybody else if I didn't have a testimony myself. I was on my way out of the church at that time because until then I was going because my mom beat me to go to church (while she didn't), and after leaving her to live with my dad (in the bishopric), I felt like I had to go out of expectations. One of the miracles in my early military days was one persistent woman who INSISTED *I* baptize her. I tried every way possible to NOT do so, mostly because I didn't feel *I* should do so. I was more or less inactive, and in all honesty, didn't know HOW to baptize her. I tried every which way to have her get the missionaries to do so.
She was VERY insistent that I do so...
I spent nearly the entire night trying to find the reference for the baptism prayer in my small military (partial) scriptures and reference book, and trying to memorize the short prayer. Even going down into the font the next day with her, I was unsure that I knew the prayer. I raised my arm to the square, SOMETHING came into me, I said the prayer (it didn't sound like my voice, to be honest), and then was gone. I was thinking "What the HELL just happened there?" as I was putting her down in the water. The two blobs standing there (missionaries as seen by a nearsighted me) nodded their heads, and I hugged this gal... STILL wondering what had just happened to me.
It was an amazing experience that helped me come back. That ward with the young adults helped me greatly as well.
I hate it when the data refutes my biases! Although, I also want to second Eric's point about cultural mormons being more those who show up because its expected but who don't personally practice or believe (as well as his point that identifying such trends in data like these is essentially impossible, no worries) - actually, do you think it could be possible to try and identify such a population by examining those who attend weekly but rank religious importance/prayer/scripture/etc. as less than very important?
My experience with "Utah Mormons", being from the Pacific Northwest or "Heathenland" as I've heard it called, mostly involves arrogance on their part. That no good thing can come from anywhere in the church outside of Utah. I've definitely felt like a second-class member in their company. This has been ESPECIALLY true of missionaries from Utah, who just can't wait to go home to where the church is true again.
But, I've also long heard it said that unfortunately (for the narrative), you'll find the best members of the church in Utah. Also the worst, but the former still outnumber the latter. And the data seems to bear that up. It would be so cool if the church (or some related entity) conducted an LDS survey on the same scale or level of detail as Pew's!
It would be great to figure out a way to collect the data Jordan mentions.
Years ago shortly have I joined the church while a college, a friend of mine asked an elder new to the area where he was from. He proudly said "ZION!". My friend then sad so you are from Missouri!!! I loved it!!! So I understand your experience with missionaries from Utah. I do feel a bit sorry for them, because my kids growing up with few members had many opportunties to experience sharing the gospel and also interacting with missionaries. I think it really helped them to hit the deck running as they served their missions.
I understand the pull of Utah. When I visit there I can feel it. The mountains are beautiful, there are lots of great outdoor things to do, I have some family there and many, many friends. And I understand being proud of where you are from, and missionaries are young and inexperienced (I know I was and I was a few years older on my mission). Hopefully over time they tamp that down.
I found these results interesting, but I think it is because I think of a cultural Mormon differently. I think of it as someone who attends church but is not really devout and only goes for the social aspects. I understand that it would be hard to determine who in the data set fits that definition. With your definition I can see that cultural Mormon’s would be more common outside Utah and the Jello belt. But with my definition I think the numbers would be flipped. I live in Maryland which means that any type of church service or going to meetings results in more time being required because of travel time. Walking to church or ministering or to drop something off at another members home is different from getting in the car and driving 10, 20, or 30 minutes (or more in some cases). Because of this I have often felt that it is hard to be a lukewarm member where the church is more spread out. Being “active” just takes more time.
This post also makes me think about the idea of “Mormon culture” that comes from Utah and to some extent other places in the jello belt. Because most of the wards in my stake have large numbers of western transplants, I feel that there are some definite influences of that western Mormon culture here. I find it even in myself, a convert of 40 years who has never lived in Utah (except for the MTC), because that has been the predominant influence in my wards. If you go to church in units in small towns in the midwest, south, or east there is a much different culture in those units. In the most recent changes in the handbook, I feel that the goal is to use doctrine and then principles to guide the administration of a worldwide church. In the past the handbook was much more influenced by “Mormon culture” based upon the ways things had been done. These were not bad, but they often did not scale or transfer well to other areas of the world (e.g., the pre-block meeting schedule that was a huge burden on those who had to travel long distances to get to church). So I believe this is an exciting time in the church as leaders are given the basic doctrines and principles to use in leading and administering the church, then they are encouraged to seek the inspiration that they are entitled to as they seek to do what is best for their members. As Elder Holland said, “Dream dreams.”
I agree in principle. I have found that there is more pressure to socially stay within the church in Utah because of the proximity of people within the ward boundaries and fear of being ostracized when drifting away.
Having grown up as a kid in Utah, I found life somewhat difficult because of persecution of other LDS kids. Granted, being an adolescent is tough anywhere. (One of them was encountered in the temple years later while visiting there for a sealing, and he DID apologize and ask my forgiveness. I was not able to think about much else in the temple that day as I wrestled with why I was having difficulty with that. Years later, looking back, I admire him for the courage to do that, and I have forgiven him.)
My subsequent years were tough, hoping for a new experience elsewhere. I found strong saints outside of Utah, with my eventual return to church being because of very strong young adults in TX in an area of baptist and protestant persecution. They HAD to be strong (and drive long distances) in the church, and I'm grateful for their efforts to bring me back. (Heavenly Father also intervened in two distinct, miraculous ways to help me back.)
My first testimony meeting back (stationed at my first base, but attending at a nearby ward) was literally me saying "Don't take this wrong, but you all should leave the church, and then come back, so you'll truly appreciate what you have in the gospel."
My own experience has shown that opposition develops stronger faith, and in my own biased opinion, there's less of it there to truly cause one to dig deep for faith and devotion. I hope that reports I see of statistics for drug prescriptions, plastic surgeries, etc. aren't from social pressures to conform, as I sense them to be.
I think an interesting survey would be an open ended question of what devotion to the church means to them, and collate those results.
Thanks for your comments, insights, and shared experience. I understand your comment about leaving the chruch to appreciate what you have. When I was in the MTC I wanted to yell at some of the missionaries "do you know what you have here?" when they seem casual about the gospel and why they were serving. For me it was apearl of great price. I knew what I found was the greatest thing ever!!
One of the challenges I see in the church is living what I call a performative version of the gopel where you have a list of things to do. If you check all of the things off the list then you are doing pretty good. I have seen a real change in the teachings from our general leaders about really living the gospel and getting down deep in our heart. They way observing the sabath was taught about 8-10 years ago is a good example of getting away from a list of do's and don'ts and focusing on the doctrine and principles of sabbath observance. Also the changes in the FSY pamphlet have really shifted to doctrines and principles. I believe that focusing on the doctrinces keeps us moving to imporove ourselves. With a checklist it is easy to get complacent when you have checked the boxes and you fell that you have done what you need to do and then coast.
Do not get me wrong: I do know that there are many, many, wonderful strong members in Utah. The large presence of the church there can really inspire people to live really good lives, and it can be a very upliting and inspiring place, but such a concentration of members can lead to a culture that is not always in keeping with the culture of the gospel. Being in the jello-belt or out of it each has its own unique challenges. The adversary works hard to exploit what ever situation exists to his advantage which leads to the stories of bad behavior by members. Luckily we have the Savior's grace and sacrifce to help us overcome all of what we face.
I agree on the performative version of the gospel.
I still remember Elder Uchtdorf speaking of the contests with the elaborate doilies and relief society competitions for lesson preparedness decorations.
I thought that MUST be a Utah thing! (I peeked in on our own ward RS meetings, and saw some of the same. ahem)
I did not serve a mission myself because at the time I didn't feel like I could "sell" it to anybody else if I didn't have a testimony myself. I was on my way out of the church at that time because until then I was going because my mom beat me to go to church (while she didn't), and after leaving her to live with my dad (in the bishopric), I felt like I had to go out of expectations. One of the miracles in my early military days was one persistent woman who INSISTED *I* baptize her. I tried every way possible to NOT do so, mostly because I didn't feel *I* should do so. I was more or less inactive, and in all honesty, didn't know HOW to baptize her. I tried every which way to have her get the missionaries to do so.
She was VERY insistent that I do so...
I spent nearly the entire night trying to find the reference for the baptism prayer in my small military (partial) scriptures and reference book, and trying to memorize the short prayer. Even going down into the font the next day with her, I was unsure that I knew the prayer. I raised my arm to the square, SOMETHING came into me, I said the prayer (it didn't sound like my voice, to be honest), and then was gone. I was thinking "What the HELL just happened there?" as I was putting her down in the water. The two blobs standing there (missionaries as seen by a nearsighted me) nodded their heads, and I hugged this gal... STILL wondering what had just happened to me.
It was an amazing experience that helped me come back. That ward with the young adults helped me greatly as well.
I hate it when the data refutes my biases! Although, I also want to second Eric's point about cultural mormons being more those who show up because its expected but who don't personally practice or believe (as well as his point that identifying such trends in data like these is essentially impossible, no worries) - actually, do you think it could be possible to try and identify such a population by examining those who attend weekly but rank religious importance/prayer/scripture/etc. as less than very important?
My experience with "Utah Mormons", being from the Pacific Northwest or "Heathenland" as I've heard it called, mostly involves arrogance on their part. That no good thing can come from anywhere in the church outside of Utah. I've definitely felt like a second-class member in their company. This has been ESPECIALLY true of missionaries from Utah, who just can't wait to go home to where the church is true again.
But, I've also long heard it said that unfortunately (for the narrative), you'll find the best members of the church in Utah. Also the worst, but the former still outnumber the latter. And the data seems to bear that up. It would be so cool if the church (or some related entity) conducted an LDS survey on the same scale or level of detail as Pew's!
It would be great to figure out a way to collect the data Jordan mentions.
Years ago shortly have I joined the church while a college, a friend of mine asked an elder new to the area where he was from. He proudly said "ZION!". My friend then sad so you are from Missouri!!! I loved it!!! So I understand your experience with missionaries from Utah. I do feel a bit sorry for them, because my kids growing up with few members had many opportunties to experience sharing the gospel and also interacting with missionaries. I think it really helped them to hit the deck running as they served their missions.
I understand the pull of Utah. When I visit there I can feel it. The mountains are beautiful, there are lots of great outdoor things to do, I have some family there and many, many friends. And I understand being proud of where you are from, and missionaries are young and inexperienced (I know I was and I was a few years older on my mission). Hopefully over time they tamp that down.